00:00:00: I'm going to see probably okay yeah okay.

00:00:09: Work it out with all the background noise they're going to take that off later okay alright so we're doing another phone yeah okay I didn't bring any fancy equipment good work.

00:00:24: Herzlich Willkommen bei Meditation, Coaching & Life. Mein Name ist Michael Kurth, auch bekannt als "Curse" 

00:00:31: und heute freue ich mich über meinen ganz besonderen Gast: Professor Bob Thurman.

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00:09:52: Okay alright perfect thank you very much for doing this my pleasure my pleasure Mike,

00:10:04: great to have you here I appreciate it it's.

00:10:08: Podcast is called meditation coaching and life so we can talk about anything because the way life is in there so life is there so anything you said meditation coaching yes okay and life,

00:10:20: all right mate so yes and I wanted to that's why I wanted to pick it up,

00:10:26: where we left off in some conversation we had a couple of days ago okay we're talking about the Matrix oh yes yes and I'm very good movie it is your favorite yeah one of my well Matrix and David are,

00:10:38: those are my two favorites lately all right why don't you go okay the thing is I heard the story about zones that cancer impasse yeah it took his students to see The Matrix yeah because he's like,

00:10:51: you have to watch this very much like a parable for okay do you think it's a Buddhist film.

00:10:57: Well yes it has that element but what I particularly like about the Matrix is the fact that people go there.

00:11:06: Sort of regular people to see an action film and they get plenty of action.

00:11:13: But then when they get into the concept of the Matrix they actually have the idea that.

00:11:20: Reality is virtual and especially where my favorite part of The Matrix.

00:11:25: Besides the drama you know I like Trinity and you can oh and then what the rabbit hole thing I would like all of that,

00:11:33: but once they get in there it's the training that he gets from Morpheus in the first Matrix in particular and and in that training.

00:11:42: Because you're identifying with Neo right because he's the hero.

00:11:46: And then he is their dream martial arts and they're doing it you can't physically normally do because they're in a world that is only.

00:11:54: Brighton is in a way there for the mentally can be moved around in another way.

00:11:59: Show by identifying with him they suddenly are and then one point like when he when he comes out.

00:12:06: And there is in a blank space but yeah the leather jacket and Morpheus is standing there and then he says the Morpheus what if this is just a computer simulation.

00:12:15: What is all this and he looks at his body and his thing and more of you and says it's a digital residual self-image.

00:12:24: And I really like that or something close to that and I really I really like that because it's the idea that you sort of creating your own reality.

00:12:31: And and then the one point he gets knocked down during the martial arts,

00:12:36: and he sort of out of breath and movies is you think that's air you're breathing hmm and then again he gets for he holds up the catches the helicopter and of what then then is hoping he's not the one I'm a bluff and,

00:12:48: but what I specially like is that training thing because it gives people a subliminal experience.

00:12:55: Being in a virtual reality which is a kind of an illusion and yet treating it as a real.

00:13:02: And then there's sort of the theme is that once you know it's an illusion and you are aware of what is constructing the illusion then you can deal with it in a more effective way.

00:13:12: He just pops those but after after a trinity kisses him of course loves has to get into it.

00:13:19: So love gives him the power and he finally wakes up out of being shot down by the Asians.

00:13:23: And he gives them that kiss of his other body which is over in the in the submarine there whatever it is and then he gets up and pops out the bullets.

00:13:34: And then he totally turns himself into pure light by merging with the Matrix energy and he merges with agent mr. Smith.

00:13:43: And the other to run away.

00:13:45: And and so it's a it's a it's a it's a teaching of the illusory in this of reality and that the hero can actually Magic master that.

00:13:56: And then there are a lot of little details that I think the Wachowski sisters and they are now they used to be brothers right now their sister.

00:14:04: That they almost didn't pick up on because then the most intriguing thing is the later Matrix he's the next two were pretty much fighting and you know the moral is getting along with action yeah.

00:14:15: But the interesting thing is that a couple of instances he deals with those machines he's outside of the Matrix in real reality so-called.

00:14:25: As if it was still The Matrix and he just goes like this and they go crash.

00:14:30: And then the third one he completed sales through a field of the machines and he keeps blessing and he can't even see them.

00:14:36: But he blasts them as if again he was the one in the matron so you know I talk to the producer once and I told him that I had a script.

00:14:46: I had a treatment for his fourth.

00:14:48: Fourth one and it would have been great and it's too bad they never made one and then he said they were going to make for that I think it was all the wrong things on this is well they did it.

00:14:58: But because the fourth Matrix the real challenge then in the Matrix is.

00:15:02: I'm bringing the virtual reality of the Matrix together with the so-called actual reality which was this destroyed planet where they have all these batteries which are human beings,

00:15:12: and the computer is running at you know but it away the computers are just running it because they're trying to keep life going.

00:15:19: And there must be a way of fixing the planet itself and especially if you get someone who has the training to use the world itself like a mentoring.

00:15:28: Then you can reshape it into a Buddha man that's what the fourth one should be not more inviting,

00:15:35: but I don't know they're not going to make it probably but that's why I like it yeah I don't know what Jen's they don't think ends they said but maybe he's sort of a little bit intimating the similar thing,

00:15:43: like it makes a Buddhist Point yeah and again you know the way you say Buddhist movie this is what I want people to really understand.

00:15:51: Is it the real thing about Buddhism is it's not a religion and a whole bunch of beliefs opposite to some materialism or something else.

00:16:00: It is science itself and as a science it does challenge materialism and it also challenges theism.

00:16:08: And it has another kind of vision of the human potential and how a human can become this kind of extraordinary being which is a Buddha being,

00:16:17: so it's a kind of has a biological evolutionary theory that the karma Theory and has a physics theory and the physics theory is relativity hmm emptiness so-called famous emptiness freedom voidness,

00:16:30: is actually the discovery of relativity.

00:16:33: Because that's what it means it means elaborate on that like the little busy is empty of any non-relative.

00:16:41: And then the absolute is empty of being the absolute.

00:16:45: And so the absolute is simply a negation of anything that presents itself as if it were an absolute which in a way violates the relativity of.

00:16:53: And the relativity of things means that the way you see them in relativity is always somewhat illusory.

00:16:59: So there are not absolute realities but in a way where the absolute reality is is this whole relativity.

00:17:05: So what that's a really cool thing because then there's no escape from this and therefore the one thing you if this is the absolute then the only thing you can do is put your total.

00:17:16: Dedication if you will your Absolute Energy into making it better for everybody because there's no scape there's no way out.

00:17:25: You don't get to go live in heaven and leave other people in the in the in the muck you know what I mean yes you have to bring everybody into something better every animals are not just every human being every be hmm so it's a it's a scientific.

00:17:40: Tradition rather than and therefore it's always gotten along with Hinduism which Confucianism,

00:17:45: and with the Western religions eventually will also get along and actually even the Dalai Lama considers secular humanism to be if another world religion.

00:17:55: You know that doesn't want to have truck with anything any can't materially measure you know and that's like a religion and it has a know a good side which is investigating everything and has a bad side which is making.

00:18:09: Materialism into a Dogma,

00:18:12: right and closed-minded thing and not looking at the more subtle things in reality though so that's where that's where the little bit about that now when you're talking about you know,

00:18:22: yeah maybe maybe I'll ask you something about emptiness you know you're probably gonna blow everybody's mind but another question I had before a little bit more concrete may be there on that,

00:18:32: maybe it has something to do with emptiness okay good is it is the question now,

00:18:38: a lot of people want to make the world a better place right they want to change the world so they get into social action they get into you know they become very righteous about things and so on and so on right A lot of people like that,

00:18:51: they burn out or they become very angry they become very disillusioned or something yeah so so

00:18:57: so what is your what is your thought on that as you're talking about Buddhism is would be a vehicle to elaborate be limited ucation it's an education,

00:19:07: the westerners have not wanted to encounter it as an education because westerners think they're smarter than everybody else.

00:19:14: And that those Asian people well they kind of cool and they meditate they look cute,

00:19:19: and they have the accused Buddha that we can put in the garden you know and feel calm because without their but basically they have nothing to learn from them maybe we train you know like her like a dog we learn to sit still or we learn to not think we learn to think more sharply.

00:19:33: But there's nothing to learn from them and so therefore they always say Buddhism is a bunch of training like you train a horse or a dog something,

00:19:42: because we've had a lot of Education in our universities and and give nauseam xand in schools,

00:19:48: and we still miserable and we don't know what the hell is going on exactly yeah so we think education is useless but actually Buddhism is education,

00:19:57: it's a different higher education I do she chose the Sanskrit word it's a higher education where you educate your emotions you educate your mind you educate yourself you discover the physical nature of reality,

00:20:11: which is relativity and Emptiness is there's no absolute that that reality hides in or you can run away from reality into.

00:20:20: The absolute is this relativity so it's you have to just hang out and you have to make a better with other,

00:20:26: now the thing about the burnout thing and you mentioned righteousness and so forth the human being has a tendency to put their ideas ahead of their experience.

00:20:35: Like they make dogmas out of their theories and then they sacrifice even Lions on top of a theory and that's wrong Buddhism is like the good side of modern science,

00:20:46: in the Alberta always said yeah I think he's so cool actually Buddha is really cool he says he sits up one morning he's really feels happy.

00:20:55: He says wow I'm so happy I know everything and I feel great I really feel great.

00:21:02: And you I know that you can know it too but I'm so sorry I can't really explain it to you.

00:21:08: Beyond words I can give you a way though you can experience it,

00:21:15: you can practice some methods and you can sharpen your mind and sharpen your attention and sharpen your mindfulness and your Insight and then you have the genius to realize it.

00:21:26: In other words he challenged what we when I was a little little boy when I was in student in school I really didn't like.

00:21:34: In the church they tell you where you can't understand you just have to believe what we tell you and but I got understand but you're not going to ever understand that's the way or are you just don't understand.

00:21:43: Well that's ridiculous I said what's up what's the point of that why should I believe something for no reason,

00:21:49: if I believe something for no reason I'll believe anything hmm right,

00:21:53: so I rejected that then you go to the science people's you're over here you can analyze this molecule and this thing and that the other

00:22:00: but of course the more you discover about it the more you will know you don't know so you'll never understand everything anyway but he'll go at it you go out on some little piece of it,

00:22:09: and make some money make a drug or do something then something and I don't like that either and what I love when I covered the Buddhist educational tradition.

00:22:19: Was Fizzy not only can you understand yourself and the world but if you want to be happy you have to understand it,

00:22:27: and actually it took me a long time to realize what is the foundation of that assurance,

00:22:33: the foundation of it is is that the Buddha supposedly is a person who did understand reality fully and what he understood was reality is freedom from suffering.

00:22:46: Reality is bliss and happiness.

00:22:49: Show you the more you know of reality the happier you will be it doesn't it doesn't appear to be the experience of everyday people don't know right that's right.

00:22:59: But that's because they don't know what it is everyday people don't know what is real they think that they are the realest thing for example yeah I'm the realest and everybody else is not real and then once they think that since the universe doesn't agree with them,

00:23:13: they're more real and everything else they suffer because they're fighting something they're struggling with it you know.

00:23:19: And so it's so the That Was Then Buddha's predicament,

00:23:24: once he was so happy and once he realized that reality is happiness if you and if you fully merge with it and know what it is it's happiness.

00:23:32: You know his four noble truths resembling people have misunderstood,

00:23:36: he said if you don't know reality if you're under lighting you'll be you will suffer yeah would you sleep it's like life is suffering right it's right but you keep Runnin right life is suffering see was less pessimistic than Socrates,

00:23:50: who said the unexamined life is not worth living but I never said that.

00:23:55: Life is very much worth living because we are these intelligent animals that have the ability to understand ourselves,

00:24:01: which is like really awesome you know that and you know Crocodile can't really understand they can eat that thing in front of them but they're not going to really figure out their Cosmic.

00:24:11: Cosmic reality gentleman the crocodile,

00:24:13: anyway they're part of cosmic reality but they can't understand that so then what do they do crocodile involves and some of the lucky crocodile becomes a human.

00:24:24: And then they do understand and even they understand they were crocodiles at some time and so they don't really are not too much against crocodile,

00:24:31: but they also don't fantasize that it's great to be a rock and I'll they realize crocodile has a quite a lot of suffering because it's more ignorant than human.

00:24:40: So so so that was good as thing and he says well everything's great and even he saw that everybody else even crocodiles are great,

00:24:48: but then he realized it when they don't know that hmm they suffer and and the so the first Noble Truth is that if you're an enlightened you'll suffer but that doesn't mean it's not worth doing.

00:24:58: It's worth because you can become enlightened,

00:25:01: the reason for that is that you exaggerate your own sense of reality as my old Mongolian used to say people are correct when they think they're real.

00:25:11: But where they're wrong is where they think they really real and then specially we all think we're more real than the other person.

00:25:19: And then the other person disagrees with that and they think they're more real than us so when you say we think we're more real than the other person you're talking about like the feeling that,

00:25:29: like me and my experience is like the ultimate Trend that's going on here that's right that's right but then they're there but then there's people right,

00:25:38: who say oh you know I'm really not that important I'm putting everyone else and everybody else is suffering first and I until you know,

00:25:46: everybody has equal rights and until all that stuff I'm going to just put myself out there completely work for that cause you know how.

00:25:55: It's really nice of them but the thing is if they do it on the basis of like categorical imperative or something.

00:26:03: But then secretly really still inside it still think they are the one like saying I should do that yeah they're driving themselves in certain way by ideologies,

00:26:13: and they still they still haven't really had the experience of being open to everyone else and connected to everyone else and they don't really empathic to everybody else they don't really feel the other people suffering,

00:26:25: and in a way because they're suffering and they're putting themselves out they get a little subliminal even as humble as they say they may be,

00:26:32: hey think little bit better than the other one because they are the one who's helping hmm and then they because they because the real compassion has to be only based on,

00:26:42: on knowing your own open-heartedness and knowing your connection to the other person just like for example you put your hand on a hot pot on your stove.

00:26:52: And University should I be nice to my hand today and take it off you don't say that you just take it off.

00:26:59: And so if you get where you can feel the other person because you're so open or open your heart in a certain way and then you draw the energy from their needs for the hell.

00:27:09: And then you have this infinite energy of other beings need.

00:27:12: So you're not forcing yourself to do something and then later burning out and feeling I was a big martyr and it didn't do any good and there's still so many more people suffering oh God and they'll you know in other words.

00:27:23: There's also something called in one inverter psychology there's something called the pride of humility mmm like I'm so hungry you know,

00:27:32: but still you think you're the most important you know you know that's been that's the pride of humility so what's how do you cure that like how do you cure that condition realize what you are.

00:27:44: And when you realize what you are is just super intelligent super sensitive being that can really discover one's own inner freedom.

00:27:54: From you know from being absolutely this or that.

00:27:57: And then find out that the boundary between oneself another is more or less by design it is an anything absolute either,

00:28:05: the more you do that the more open and empathic you become you know mithril was admitted lying to you or no no make you feel,

00:28:15: yeah compassion yeah yeah but you do feel me trilling with the food make you feel that make you feel you get this medieval and you actually make you feel you feel with that they fail.

00:28:28: And then luckily we the more open-hearted like you are the stronger you are actually because the inner have the stronger the inner Bliss and happiness you have so you can bear to feel the feeling of the.

00:28:40: And then similarly also you know we have a way of seeing another the way we feel we are.

00:28:46: Like you know when you are in love with you were feeling inner Bliss I could so beloved in your love that.

00:28:53: When you see other people they look more beautiful to you and you sort of see the happiness side of them even their kind of,

00:29:00: and then you like you become like a good parent or you become a good lover and like your lover is like a little down,

00:29:05: and you kind of really good at cheering them up because you say well you're kind of down but you know I can see you bringing to them in your new can tease them out of,

00:29:14: they're moving because you begin to see that they have the potential in them of happiness because they were being done sexually.

00:29:22: And so it's like even a responsibility,

00:29:26: to develop your own happiness that's the highest one in order to provide that that's right for people and you look there is one form of Buddhism Buddhist education that that.

00:29:39: Doesn't want to oppress people into the non-duality vision.

00:29:44: Because it's too hard for people they just see all the suffering and they think how could this be Nirvana how could this.

00:29:50: Life Bliss in the not non-duality is not is it removes a bunch of people starving here are burning and fire liver this ridiculous is good so they can see that so then to those people there's a form of the educational you'll okay there's a place where you get free of it all till he let her know that.

00:30:05: And then what happens is they sort of don't get to spared by what they see and they try to open themselves more and they at least get themselves happy but they don't get that happy because actually.

00:30:17: Your own desire for happiness is not as strong as a hundred people's desire happiness a hundred people's desire for happiness the more you open to it gives you a much greater power.

00:30:27: Add because you want to you know it's like you know the marathon runner in ancient Greece who ran from marathon where the Persians were coming.

00:30:36: You know jerk Caesar somebody with nastily was coming and then he wanted to say the Athens and his you know his family and his friends and his Patriots compatriot.

00:30:44: So he ran beyond the capability of his body and he gave the message the Persians are coming get ready and then died.

00:30:51: Because he actually broke his body because his his love for his country was stronger than his ability of his body and his mind was more powerful than 40,

00:31:00: and then there's the famous story of the Japanese from the why they were disqualified from World crew competition and then another syrup well there one time they got really close and they do have big Japanese,

00:31:12: and they got really close to beating the Cambridge crucial you know the eighth man is growing Tina and they've lived within like foot of losing to them.

00:31:21: And in a big race you know and then as they floated over the line two or three of the members of the eight crudup dead.

00:31:30: They burst blood vessels in their head or something you know.

00:31:33: And so then they were disqualified because they're so gung ho when they get together that they again they outdo the capacity of their body you know with their will,

00:31:42: to vote in that case to win that we race you know so so they're sort of the expansion of identification that the human being has,

00:31:50: the ability to a person to a parent with a child you know members of a family with each other war buddies in a platoon in a battle you know people on team made so soccer field,

00:32:03: you know they lovers you know during the honeymoon at least they identified with each other and you know this is a special human ability.

00:32:12: And so the bodies had God Who Wants to be a Buddha and then the Buddha by definition is a being that has expanded that identification limitlessly.

00:32:22: What is Santa has expanded it tremendously and then a Buddha limitlessly which again gets into the area of like being almost inconceivable.

00:32:30: And and that gives them more courage and more strength and more energy to even be more happy themselves because then you say okay I love you so what does that mean.

00:32:40: And in the Buddhist education what I love you means is I want you to be happy I have a will to your happiness and then how could that be have any meaning if you don't have some happiness yourself.

00:32:50: That's that's how you have to come and say I love you and I'm totally miserable without you,

00:32:56: sure maybe I'll go have a void where half how must have been fun but on the other hand it was like some I found to be supplying their happiness.

00:33:06: Or their misery like you know well no because you much much more fun if someone who's really happy then additionally want to love you sure I want you to be happy sure,

00:33:15: so in fact that is how love that's where the Power of Love Comes is from the happiness of the lover.

00:33:22: Wanting to beloved to be just as happy or more even you know and then from that increases in value no.

00:33:29: Love being the strong force of the universe in the Buddhist in Buddha's Discovery is that that's what his Discovery is his Discovery really is nirvana,

00:33:37: not that unaligned people will suffer,

00:33:40: is that it's possible to be enlightened and have Nirvana and live Nirvana so what is that Nirvana is it freedom.

00:33:49: It's your Nirvana is total freedom from suffering.

00:33:53: And then is what is the minimalist way of saying because Buddha was smart if you go around promising people Bliss they think you're trying to sell him a drug or you're trying to calm them or something because you know they're there they think they know it's really it's all miserable and,

00:34:07: and so it is really just said freedom from suffering that was his minimalist thing and later when it gets up into the exoteric things esoteric things like Tundra and things like that he says it's Bliss Freedom indivisible,

00:34:21: that's what he that's what the Nirvana is and this is their mother right here.

00:34:25: Is this supposedly yeah that's that I don't quite have a full brilliant for it yet

00:34:32: but I've sort of had a taste and I think it is the case that something to wrap your head around right but like it's something to wrap your head around yeah to say well this world that we're living in with everything that's going on this actually is nirvana it's right but.

00:34:47: We have like we can't see it.

00:34:50: Well that's because of ignorance you see if we if we the more we investigated we will find its reality,

00:34:57: and then people who many not just Buddha but many people millions of people went ahead of us and they did discover that reality and they gave us all kinds of educational methods of how to do it can you give me one one example,

00:35:11: of how would you investigate that how yes well just like anything you wouldn't put it under analysis.

00:35:18: You would analyze it so what is it okay okay here is me I'm a miserable person I feel dissatisfied all the time I understand that oh well what really is that really my fixed way of being.

00:35:30: Is my habit,

00:35:32: who was wanting some more and always evaluating but I have and they were being content with in there okay so I'm there for I wouldn't agree that this is bliss because I think Bliss is something I have to get I have moments of it then I want more,

00:35:44: okay so if I investigate that I look at well who's really wonder who am I what am I.

00:35:50: And then is it is this chair is this habit what am I stuck in this habit and anything that you investigate according to their scientific.

00:36:00: Tradition and Discovery it will dissolve under your analysis.

00:36:06: That is nothing will you know they've been dissipated the Copenhagen declaration that you cannot pin down any point of substance in reality,

00:36:15: when you get to the super micro level and and there's no absolute objectivity because when you get to Super Micro level then the observed Act of observing it interferes with it.

00:36:25: So actually the Mind itself is a force within the nature so mind itself will dissolve under analysis and you won't be able to find your mind.

00:36:34: And then even Adam or material object will dissolve under not sure won't be able to find your mind and then that that find it not funny and then the one of the last things that you might think,

00:36:45: when you doing find the thing you're investigating,

00:36:47: you might think that you found nothing sure but actually no it's all like probably worthless or but by definition that's just an expression that we say and luckily we know the meaning of nothing which is it's not there.

00:37:00: So we didn't find it we just didn't find what we were looking for and actually what that's therefore we had an educational cognition.

00:37:09: And an occasional cognition has the nice quality about it that the mind then is open to experience something else.

00:37:18: So for example if you look for the elephant in this room as we said the other day here yeah and you don't find it there you never find the non elephant you just don't find the elephant.

00:37:27: And then you look to your open to see the light and the person and the other things in the room so will you keep doing that everything you analyze whatever it is.

00:37:38: Yourself especially and then for example when you're doing find your fixed self.

00:37:43: At first you might have an experience like an existentialist nothing that's experience but then you by reasoning you know perfectly well that nothing is as not there.

00:37:53: So you don't get stuck there you know that you know the emptiness of nothingness for example that's an expression or the freedom of nothingness or from nothingness.

00:38:02: And from nothing is being a thing in itself the DMZ you never find anything on 6 everything dings everything is just as interconnected with other Deeds,

00:38:12: it's all interesting he's grinding and zinc and English kite fine intent English height you fine so the more you do that.

00:38:22: The more free you realize you are and you realize anyway you have a kind of choice.

00:38:27: When you going to be that three miserable you could decide to see the glass half full and not half empty.

00:38:34: Have you decided to be a little more contented and etcetera you begin to have more inner freedom in your mind and seeing the glass half full or half empty right this could be like a philosophical thing it's like oh I'm Optimist I.

00:38:46: But it seems to me that under these circumstances if you analyze and if you go in there seeing the glass half full or half empty.

00:38:55: Switches from being,

00:38:57: like a philosophical concept and it goes into being like an experiential course who like conviction right it's so I don't use that word because that's the product of an interest conviction is an idea.

00:39:12: It can start as a conviction but then when he becomes experiential.

00:39:16: It's become something that you open to you know and you have it but on the other hand don't think that a philosophical thing is just nothing.

00:39:24: Because the conceptuality although ultimately experience when we really Blown Away we have no concept temporarily and when conceptuality returns we sort of stopped being blown away but on the other hand we aim to blow away through conceptuality.

00:39:39: So conceptual is extremely valuable for analysis that's another thing that's been very misunderstood about Buddhism and has led to a lot of nonsense that a lot of cults,

00:39:48: is that the it's all simplified if you just don't think anything and all the meditations about not thinking,

00:39:53: and that's BS and I don't mean Buddhist studies and and just now thinking will not necessarily help,

00:40:01: it's a special kind of not thinking in special concept aimed by thinking,

00:40:07: you know they say you know there's two kinds of meditation categories in the Buddhist education system,

00:40:12: here's one pointed non-thinking meditation shama top and then there's analytic meditation compassionate and there's another Third Kind of his imagine visualizing meditation that's that more Tantra once you already realize emptiness.

00:40:25: For freedom and of those to the in analytic one is more important the conceptual one and and especially when it gets armed by one pointedness then when you get to the conclusion of the idea,

00:40:37: for example the idea that all things are relative.

00:40:40: Because they're empty of any dn6 excite and so you know that you come to that's a concept that's an obvious inference but then you really press that on things and then it becomes an experience and you see through everything,

00:40:55: you know everything disappears.

00:40:57: And yet you don't find any of the state of the disappearing disappears and then it's like they were then and then it's like the things that seem to come back are like Reflections in a mirror and the mirror surface,

00:41:11: is the surface of their freedom their emptiness their voidness their layer height.

00:41:17: They hydrants for this event is right yeah height so you have all your world how do you how do you.

00:41:28: How do experiences that people have figure into this kind of thing because a lot of times you hear people would say oh I was in somewhere and all of a sudden I,

00:41:37: had this I felt this explosive thing and I felt one with the world and that's great super happy and then like I sort of came out of it and now it's like,

00:41:46: I've experienced that and that's it and then how does that figure into this this thing looks contain is available using is there's this thing,

00:41:55: that's called the space like equipoise samadhi hmm which can come from the result of deep investigation and Analysis combined with one pointed.

00:42:05: Focus on that so going much more deep you know like you know the world dance thinker.

00:42:11: You know that sculpture that yeah you know that one yes we have a one in front of the philosophy department at my University and it's so obvious that he can't really think that well because that posture is impossible to maintain,

00:42:26: he's nothing Yogi he's not sitting in a good posture sitting Strife in a balanced way he looks like he's breaking his head a little like to me he looks constipated.

00:42:35: He's worried about his bowel movements you know and and so that's a superficial in a way it's he's thinking but he's not thinking where his breaking through,

00:42:45: you know in order to be able to bring to you have to think more deeply and have a stronger focus and I think many great philosophers did I'm don't get me wrong for example Descartes he did discover,

00:42:56: that when he looked for himself he couldn't find it hmm that he has to did which is that which is that space type of experience but he didn't have anybody to recognize that to know put it in the framework so know what he did was he made a little mistake he was absolutely correct,

00:43:10: he said when I look for myself.

00:43:13: I can't find it but actually it is myself that looks yes so when I looked and I have a self and then he thought that was an absolute team but meanwhile that is it relational thing actually.

00:43:25: So you know I think therefore I am is like an acceptance is surrendered to relationality but he took it as a point of absolute certainty.

00:43:35: Which is not absolute its relative right he feels I'm here you know you know if he had if you had a Zen master in for goods and master not only holistic one who thinks you just don't think he had a good one that zen master would say.

00:43:48: You're not sure that you're there you're just saying that.

00:43:52: You are certain that that's okay then get anybody's hurting it you're engaged in relativity in a way of being done that's fine but don't make it into an absolute.

00:44:02: That's what that guy would have whacked him one from that right there was a parallel you know the way they do,

00:44:07: but if it's what he did it he will see Yogi to you know I don't know what posture he said it may be comfortable chair but he was a real Yogi not like this so many of the Great Recon towards great I love those

00:44:19: hey girl I have a problem with a little bit this was so windbag you know but but he's the but he was probably very good too so,

00:44:27: so till yeah so it's cool you know.

00:44:32: And really hide is the discovery that all relative things lack any non-relative element.

00:44:39: And even the absolute itself lacks being it being something that is not the relative.

00:44:47: Because although it is a concept that something that is not relative and therefore cannot relate to the.

00:44:53: People propose all sorts of things as definitely say God is absolute they say nothing this is absolutely no because we have this craving because we are these language animals,

00:45:03: and we have a word for something relative in that only see things relating,

00:45:07: and then we say well there's opposite of that that's absolute and that must also refer to something mmm or even like people think when they die they're going to be nothing.

00:45:15: They're going into nothing but move on nothing it's not a place.

00:45:20: Nothing is not there to receive anybody so nobody gets to stay there the law of Psychics thermodynamics,

00:45:27: combined is energy and it goes somewhere and then where does it go then that's the thing people should know because it's going to be them going somewhere that's I think that's one of the one of the one of the main things people.

00:45:40: People you know when you talk about Buddhism with people it's like oh yeah you know it's a nice it's like a philosophy and it's like no it's not really a philosophy,

00:45:49: you know what I mean so it's a religion though it's not really religion and then people are like oh yeah I like mindfulness right I like some basic method which is yes.

00:45:56: Great right yeah fantastic but I think one of the points where it comes to like a big who I don't know

00:46:05: is this whole reincarnation business I know which is kind of where where you just approached yeah when you said like by the law of thermodynamics if the if the mind is energy in can't just.

00:46:17: Dissipate into whatever nothingness you can have a little dissipate you know diffusion but doesn't get destroyed is the thermodynamic thing you know you have entropy for it gets diffused,

00:46:28: and then sometimes come see where act together but but it can't be destroyed that's that that's their that's their Theory and that's that's based on observation,

00:46:36: because you guess what nobody's ever seen something become nothing.

00:46:41: And also this is most important to know the people get oh yeah but I like it and put this on it but I don't like to think about reincarnation.

00:46:48: They say but on the other hand and that for years I and then when you mentioned something to say what's your evidence hmm you know what I talk with my scientific colleagues all the time,

00:46:57: it took me many years to get out of the,

00:47:00: cultural Mutual confirmation that everyone believes that doesn't believe that rather and then you have to ask them just one question is there scientists.

00:47:10: Who is it who discovered nothing was there evidence that nothing exists what's evidence for that and therefore how who whatever is today going to go there.

00:47:20: Because there's no there there so you can't go there and that bam whole thing collapses minute you really focus on what nothing means.

00:47:29: You can't be nothing there is no such thing that's what the word me hmm,

00:47:34: believe me after 40 Years of debating with them about so what it what do they say to that they get mad yeah yeah they I ask them like did Carl Sagan show up.

00:47:45: You know at some scientific conference after he died and say listen it's cool guys I don't exist and they didn't almost religions are crazy and there have been crazy who's not accepting embracing,

00:47:58: Sanada you know like Miguel de unamuno serrator camel.

00:48:02: But that's a bit doesnot has kind of a nice thing grave it's like realizing selfishness or emptiness in a way but you know the governor has a famous statement the Great Indian philosopher but his philosopher he says emptiness.

00:48:15: Is the bomb the medicine for all kinds of suffering and mental fixations and things.

00:48:23: But if you fixate on emptiness then therefore there's no cure.

00:48:26: For you to know what I mean because it itself is it because why because it's relativity is what it is it's relationality emptied as means no non-relational thing that relevant.

00:48:40: You know what I mean yes nothing is really not relevant because we can't go there because it isn't there you know.

00:48:47: And an absolute that was disconnected from relativity is irrelevant to anybody in relativity Where We Are.

00:48:55: Right so at so therefore this the relativity is the absolute.

00:49:00: So therefore this is Nirvana and if we can press those two awarenesses together in the ultimate Act of cognitive dissonance reconciliation.

00:49:10: Hello we're going to enjoy the relativity 100 times more.

00:49:16: And we're going to be free of suffering will be help others to do that and if we say we can't do that because it's inconceivable to press two opposite things together in the mine.

00:49:26: Then the great thing to work on is an analyze your own experience of your face in the mirror.

00:49:33: When you look at your face in the mirror you are seeing another person who looks just like Mike.

00:49:39: In a 3-dimensional room that looks like your room but left right is reversed and that's what you actually see.

00:49:47: But without thinking you are you correct it instantaneously.

00:49:52: And you you know you shave on the right side but on the which is on the left side in the mirror and you shave on the Miller personally not so much but yeah in general yeah I love your feared or you clip your beer but the point is

00:50:05: no words you that underlying awareness of that it's a mirror reflection which is actually a correction,

00:50:11: is instantaneously present with your mid delusion illusory Vision which is that there's something through the mirror and so you are holding two opposite things together and you having therefore you have an improved,

00:50:24: perception of what you see very true yes and we are capable of that so if we're capable of that if we build on that.

00:50:32: Then we can realize this is nirvana while dealing with it as relativity.

00:50:38: We can we can or you as I like to say we can joy and experience and ameliorate.

00:50:44: Relativity without losing track of it is nirvana.

00:50:51: And then we've then we find nirvana in every aspect of it.

00:50:56: And then everything becomes enjoyable it seems like like every time I.

00:51:04: It's not even that I think about it but it seems like it's also something that has a lot to do with opening up something like a great creativity oh God absolutely.

00:51:14: Totally I mean I'm saying absolutely right absolutely but this is density change see the wisdom.

00:51:23: Opens you up from any dogmatic conviction.

00:51:26: Any like fixation on any ideology or even on a theory they know modern science is the same as Buddhist science and that that theory is always subject to revision by experience.

00:51:38: Here is a hypothesis awaiting fortification or verification and depending,

00:51:43: and so this very much is not religion like yes it's not religion the great celebratory verse about the Buddha,

00:51:51: Sam Junior Ludo embody Maharashtra many soir but that means is of those things that arise from causes the Buddha said what are the causes,

00:52:06: and also how they get to be ceased.

00:52:09: And that was what he advocated that such was the path that he advocated the great they Wanderer you still the great secret - Ramona I actually like to translate the great vacation.

00:52:21: Because he sounds nice so yeah that's it that's the thing so you know.

00:52:30: The wrong way of teaching Buddhism is it somehow it's irrational it's mystical you throw away your reason which is over the westerners are more rational which is our true but they think they are,

00:52:43: and and that will help us if we throw that away and now we're going to meditate we're not going to think and we're going to just,

00:52:49: just the experience without thinking you know and and then but that leads to and some gurus encourage that because they don't want those students to think that they're not getting anywhere,

00:53:00: I need the girl sucks because they want like BMWs and they want to be served and they want a bunch of Federal Regulation from the students so the less they think the better.

00:53:10: If they think they think after a month or two of this like what is this why why am I doing this.

00:53:16: I don't feel much better you know mmm and if the and then they look for more hmm um so that's the thing when it comes to Guru or teacher right so many,

00:53:27: people will hear this maybe hopefully people will hear this and think okay I want to experience is that when they explore I want to you know it's good and.

00:53:36: And a lot of people are then going to say maybe hopefully I'm looking for someone to teach me this it's gonna and you said something really nice.

00:53:45: I hope you can say it again how about about said about what like what qualifies for for a good teacher like how do you find a good teacher like oil you know a teacher legal him right yeah like how do you find.

00:54:00: Like what are the qualities to look for in someone in somewhat because there are so many people out there and there are so many labels and so many vital signs on the doorbell like oit just meditation and that one and this is the truth and this is the mystical this and that what.

00:54:16: Is there like is there something you would recommend like how would you find or what are the qualities you would be looking for well you know what do you look for when you seek an education.

00:54:28: You know you seek an education say you want to be a chemist or you want to be a computer scientist so you know for someone who's knowledgeable about computer science.

00:54:38: And you take that course but you don't necessarily,

00:54:42: if you come to a computer science teacher and that said uses only I know computer science and don't ever study with anybody else ever and just sit just irritating me then you would be a little suspicious about that,

00:54:54: the faculties of computer science so if you have someone were but here you here's a book and hear this and here's the look on you try that and that's great you know so I can always give students a rule of thumb,

00:55:06: which is if you meet three people who are teaching something and you learning from them,

00:55:13: and it seems to make sense to you and it seems when you try to put it into your mind and practice it seems to open up some doors for you then that's very good and particularly if that person is happy to share with you what they know,

00:55:25: and they and they also are perfectly happy when you go study some other thing and so they're sort of relaxed about they don't seem to be too needy about you.

00:55:34: But if you meet someone who's is are your karma I'm your intestine Guru One-Stop shopping everything here don't go talk to anybody else you might take some fuse Etc and that one is a oh thanks so much that's so good that's great thanks a lot goodbye.

00:55:49: That's the rules some should I give,

00:55:52: and and you know the girl thing in tibetan system has become very confused,

00:56:00: here is an initiatory role for a llama Or Guru and special context but it doesn't mean some sort of excessive dependence.

00:56:09: And but it's in a way one is using that llama and in this ceremonial way as a doorway to the boot into the actual Buddha.

00:56:19: You know and then it almost doesn't matter if the person is not perfect and then when the person is in their civilian clothes let's say they're driving down the street if they say turn right down a one-way Street you can say no that's stupid.

00:56:33: You know you don't do something wrong from them so someone should be ethical they should walk their talk they should not see me doing harmful

00:56:41: if you're already as a group around someone you look at the people in the group if they seem very independent-minded and they have a friendly relations with the,

00:56:49: teacher but they don't have some respect as they learn something but they're not real like slaves.

00:56:55: The rig Bank organization recently recently blew up all over there plenty of them in Germany I think also yes they all blew up because,

00:57:03: finally they got sick of that teacher exploiting them and behaving badly and then that specially that because actually some of the things he taught where we used.

00:57:12: Somewhere not the excessive anti reason element is especially bad and anti learning element and actually like you just empty your mind and stare at the world that's but that's no good that's.

00:57:24: But still some things that came true that person who are,

00:57:28: so they don't want to throw out whatever they lose their value because they dislike them bad things the person did you know and but that's how it we have to be more mature to be able to do that,

00:57:37: they tend to turn against the whole thing and somebody abuses them yeah that happens yeah yeah right now yes and that can be for stalled by people learning.

00:57:48: And studying and realize this is like an educational process,

00:57:52: you know people don't go to study chemistry or become a computer Scientist by some guy on The Faculty who says oh you don't have to take 101 and 201 and 301 and then event seminar,

00:58:04: just come they've been seven or just look at me in the seminar and you little bit perfect to prove you're a scientist nobody would think that was the case.

00:58:13: That's ridiculous.

00:58:15: And yet that's the way they behaved of the just found the Llama you don't learn anything and I've known people who would spend it on some level for 30 years it still don't know anything yeah.

00:58:25: So that's really miss miss and abuse maybe maybe that's because.

00:58:30: That whole thing still has a veil of mystery that's right it's like oh the meditation and are the the secret terrorism yeah and so on you know yeah do you think that's that's you think it's necessary to sort of.

00:58:45: Get rid of that Veil get rid of that thing yeah yeah to get rid of it ahead of time.

00:58:51: And and and find out what's going on as much as possible.

00:58:55: Especially when people first hear about they get excited and they say I need a teacher then you say that's a mistake,

00:59:02: if you really need your you probably don't need a teacher but you do is need to learn more,

00:59:07: and then when you've learned a lot and see if you have a you have a real way of evaluating different possible teachers,

00:59:13: and there are some exceptional cases like I did my teacher decided Millie do that was the I was terrified in a way I was completely drawn and then that person immediately taught me a bunch of stuff and he and he said he's not a my girl hmm,

00:59:27: he just didn't teach me a language he was he was stepped out of the domination.

00:59:32: Okay and the Donna just that he's so great in that sense you know he can give a ritual and he's very Majestic with his gestures and recite the mantra.

00:59:42: And then he's out there chuckling and cracking the dirty joke or whatever and shaking hands and being totally normal and nobody has to blow a horn or act like it's a big deal with him.

00:59:52: And then when he goes to a hotel or something he's busy somewhere to teach he goes and meets all the dishwashers and stuff.

00:59:58: It is just as nice to them as he is to the whatever goes to the White House he digs the security guy and when he went to the Bush senior house in New York I mean in Washington.

01:00:09: Millie the dog ran away with him because they were paranoid about the Chinese so they didn't let him go out the front door.

01:00:16: So he went a little back elevator from the kitchen and they didn't notice that the dog got in the elevator with him and then the dog was running across the lawn because they didn't want the photograph of him leaving the White House to show the Chinese so they wouldn't be mad,

01:00:28: Bush senior was a big thing about the Chinese and so they had the Secret Service guys were running to credit catch the dog don't want to go see Donna,

01:00:37: time is not going to pick her up by the ears Millie when did you when did you first meet the Dalai Lama 1964,

01:00:47: how did that happen well my old Mongolian teacher who was my first teacher.

01:00:53: Took me to India to meet him after studying about a year and three quarters with him.

01:01:00: Almost two years because I kept bugging him to make me a month.

01:01:05: And he refused and he said I know you're sincere you want to be a mom you think that's all you want to do with your life and study this stuff and meditate on that you want to be a monk.

01:01:16: But it's not your karma to be a month he I think he knew about my soulmate was their way which I didn't know about,

01:01:24: I had actually did already married quite young I married very young hmm and I know already I was like fantasizing I'm like shaking booty I'm leaving the wife and child who the hell I am,

01:01:33: and nonsense think so but he knew I was still there was no monster form in America there was no monster in the 60s you know Sailors are really much what is monasteries there.

01:01:44: And there's any centers and meditation center but not really actual monsters.

01:01:50: So anyway so that's it so listen you know what I love talking to your people I guess in Berlin and wherever it is or maybe all over the world from Berlin,

01:01:59: and my one thing my teacher told me when I graduated got my PhD in 1972.

01:02:06: I visited him among a bunch of other things he told me giving me many jobs.

01:02:12: He said by the way what did you say again and I said well this is Dad nearly Japanese Mongolian Sanskrit Chinese and the lettuce looks delicious.

01:02:22: You didn't study Russian Ice is no Russian dream tell me study Russian,

01:02:29: and he is from Russia's you called me from Russia and he used to say bad things about the white Russians actually cuz they they were like Indians on the reservation or something and tell them is really nasty to them during the war you know the comic Mongolia.

01:02:42: So you can tell me to study Russian accent oh that's terrible isn't okay well at least you're brewing in German right I said no I didn't I said I had to pass a test in some academic term everybody to learn to speak,

01:02:56: come on you know this is also hisses when you are an old man.

01:03:02: If you can't teach the Dharma in Russian and German.

01:03:07: Your work will not be finished and you will not be happy I can still hear him say that what a setup all this time.

01:03:15: And and I go do like store in Russia frequently and I can't be gross and I tried a couple times to study and then I didn't have time and it's a difficult language very similar to Sanskrit in some respects actually quite.

01:03:30: And then I haven't visited Germany German might although my Guru I better have my woman Guru.

01:03:40: She's had German but she doesn't teach me his Vespa viu.

01:03:47: From from this valuable father was so am I so is my from Westphalia everybody's phone yeah.

01:03:54: We don't know where Prince Lei berga is where slavery that would father's name was from slavery okay okay.

01:04:02: Symbol you know like a family or we don't know where it is we never went back I'm sorry he died in code okay and which is their right.

01:04:13: Yes.

01:04:14: So and so I like that so we can do you can we can do more podcasts I can do you podcast also I will interview you on Skype Iran resume or something okay I would love that I like to do that I have a podcast you,

01:04:29: I know that right you know you know this is true I'm not I'm not saying this to put like honey on your how do you not rely on your belly or something but no,

01:04:37: when when people ask me it's like okay so we like a podcast like what what should we do if we want to learn more about Buddhism literally always the first thing I say is listen to the Bob common good,

01:04:50: hello.

01:04:51: Okay well you got a mile and your own art and you have your own special knowledge and you made you found your way here and so I want to do podcast with you in the future,

01:05:01: I will do more with you if you want you know I would love to question yes beautiful sky from Woodstock perfect thank you,

01:05:10: thank you very much for thank you she ate it thank you thank you really.

01:05:15: Music.