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00:05:45: Lama Rod Thank you very much and very much! Welcome to the podcast to appreciate the time congratulations on the book that you just released its not out in German yet.

00:05:57: But you know we are will some people have a chance to read it in English and I would love to.

00:06:06: To start this with sort of picking up a thread that you that you opened up in the beginning of your new book called love and rage and.

00:06:15: There's to delay this is the so many things I'd love to unpack I think it's going to be a possible in the time but start somewhere and this one is.

00:06:25: You start with an experience.

00:06:29: You describe how you're giving a talk and a young man raises his hand and talks about meditation and anger and the experiences.

00:06:40: So when I meditate I don't encounter the Bliss and happiness first but what I meet is my anger,

00:06:49: and then he goes on to say like I don't know if I need that I think I need a little bit more happiness what's going on here right so so you say something say something beautiful I'm just quoting sort of from from memory

00:07:02: you have to wrestle with the anger in order to get to the Heartbreak,

00:07:08: because if you don't get to the Heartbreak you don't get to the heat yeah right now as you're leaving this Gathering.

00:07:17: You're thinking there is something else there was something I wish,

00:07:22: I could have communicated or something I myself have to delve into more.

00:07:28: Could you take me on that Journey where where did this journey lead you to this yeah this looking yeah yeah you know during that time you know.

00:07:41: Questions around anger group quite common,

00:07:44: you know and I kept getting them over and over and over again and I felt like I never had an adequate response,

00:07:51: for folks you know and so at that events when you know this young black man asked me that you know and I felt like I gave a pretty good response you know and I actually have a video

00:08:04: from the event so I went back and watched it you know that's not good actually so I'm not making that up

00:08:11: yeah I went back and listened to everything and I remember walking out of that event and my publisher happened to be.

00:08:20: At that events and my publisher was actually the one who reminded me about that events hmm to go back and look at,

00:08:30: and I remember we all walked out together I just kind of looked at it and I was like I think I just need to do this I think I need to write a book about anger and I had no idea how that was going to happen.

00:08:40: Because I you know it's weird because I've done so much to work around anger and now it's natural.

00:08:49: We need to do this you know and so my journey.

00:08:53: After that moment of committing to writing this book really began it really it really was about going back and paying attention to all the ways that I had developed methods and strategies.

00:09:06: To work with my anger you know and that that was a journey.

00:09:11: In itself because I had to go back and unpack all these things and articulate things that never take you later before you know about anger and heartbreak and suffering and using the energy of anger you know

00:09:26: it's a benefit folks I mean that was this this was all a New Journey for me,

00:09:31: you know chart take you leave that you know for folks and so I it was creating a different kind of book

00:09:40: you know it's not I think people initially thought it would be a self-help book where it would be really nicely organized and like points that you could like really

00:09:52: you know kind of bring into a practice and really get like this instance kind of benefit and it's really not that kind of book it's a book where it,

00:10:02: I feel as if it's a book that invites you to step in.

00:10:06: Mmm to a really intense inner process of looking and experiencing.

00:10:13: These temperature different aspects of who and what you are you know and it's not so much about anger as it is about woundedness

00:10:22: no we can talk all day about anger but no one wants to talk about the hurts.

00:10:28: You know and I think that's the the hurt is where the violence arises from

00:10:33: like if I can't take care of my hurt then I end up reacting to it using anger as a vehicle to actually hurt other people

00:10:44: including myself so what it really is is,

00:10:50: it's not so much about well it's not at all about as many people would wish to learn a way to eliminate your anger right,

00:11:00: you know but it but it's you just said it you said well.

00:11:05: The anger sort of what I hear is like the anger is sort of its like a gate yes if you didn't intend to get in touch with this.

00:11:14: With the sensation of anger if you can familiarize yourself with it,

00:11:19: it'll lead you to something else but you just called the woundedness the woundedness right

00:11:25: and that's you know what you just offers exactly it is this isn't a

00:11:30: a book about getting rid of anger about eliminating anger I think that's why it's disappointing for something because you know people want to get rid of the things that are comfortable.

00:11:43: Yeah and this is the opposite this this book is really about let's go deeper

00:11:48: come to the things that make us uncomfortable because if you go deeper into it you're actually start understanding how to be free from it getting free from something doesn't mean that it goes away

00:12:00: it means that I'm not bound to it any longer I'm not in a reactionary relationship,

00:12:07: this is very beautiful beautiful sentence when you say getting free from something yeah it doesn't mean that it goes away

00:12:15: right which is that which is the general conception

00:12:17: you know Zack could you elaborate on that a little bit more what happened yeah you know it's you know because I will first I'll say that like everything in our experience is important,

00:12:32: like it's valuable even if it's really uncomfortable it's still really valuable so in my practice I am trying to,

00:12:41: learn from these things that I find uncomfortable and I want there to be space for everything,

00:12:47: you know so I want to make space for everything to be in my experience you know including anger you know anger isn't the issue.

00:12:58: You know as my relationship to the anger that's the issue that's the thing,

00:13:02: you know you know it's you know we talked about so in America we talk about God you know like you know and guns aren't the issue.

00:13:15: Like is our relationship to the guns is how we've created a meaning around a gun that's the issue.

00:13:22: You know and that's what I want to emphasize over and over and over again I want to transform my relationship.

00:13:29: To the things that have that have traditionally created violence and harm.

00:13:34: You know the issues in the relationship how I'm relating to something how I'm trying to use that thing.

00:13:41: You know how I'm running away from something and my own experience at using that thing to feel better.

00:13:49: You know because housing it sucks to go better yeah you know it's the same thing with substances we talked about.

00:13:56: You know drug and alcohol addiction that's a part of it you know it's like how am I using this other thing to take care of myself.

00:14:05: You know our think that I'm taking care of myself with this day you know and maybe you know which is of course what I believe the like I believe that I have to bring my attention back to why.

00:14:19: I'm trying to be in a certain relationship with this thing

00:14:23: you know so we talk about anger so my the question that's at the heart of my practice is why is why am I in,

00:14:31: certain relationship with anger why am I in a reactionary relationship with anger why do I get angrier so pissed off and instantly react and do something.

00:14:41: That's the question that we should be bringing our practice to to being curious about and working with.

00:14:51: This leads me to to think of something in your previous book radical Dharma yeah a passage that there's a lot so a lot in there but one thing that also stuck with me is that you were talking about,

00:15:06: Angela you were talking about healing and as you're talking about healing you say that some people are suspicious of healing

00:15:15: because because there is a belief that if I somehow work with my anger if I work with my being pissed off you know I'm going to lose something I'm going to lose a connection to

00:15:29: the suffering of others I'm going to lose a connection to this ground energy that I utilize in order to act so

00:15:37: so so is.

00:15:39: If you look at your anger and if you transcend it how are you not losing the connection how are you not losing this this energy like I would you know

00:15:50: how is that fear not based on truth you know yeah well there is a truth there absolutely you're losing something yeah anger is a really.

00:15:59: Powerful vital Dynamic energy that can Propel us

00:16:03: through a lot of things you know it it is at the heart I think of how many of us experience courage like being courageous me is it like we're pushing through the things that scare us

00:16:16: you know every using anger to do that and I do that quite often absolutely you know but the difference that I'm talking about is I am.

00:16:27: I am not using anger to do all the work for me I am actually coming from a place of love you know because the issue is.

00:16:37: Anger is depleting.

00:16:40: Like in the pleats us love is restorative you know so I moved to the world because I want people to be happy and I want people to be free from suffering,

00:16:52: and I have the same wish for myself that drives me.

00:16:56: That's the that's the root of my courage now my anger is something that actually helps to support.

00:17:04: Attention that motivation,

00:17:06: you know so when I'm like like really like practically when I'm in a situation and I've I was in a situation last week in an online meeting where like there was something happened and I had to address.

00:17:19: You know and I was really angry I was pissed off no and so my experience was actually giving a lot of space of the anger.

00:17:30: And just and just pay attention to it like I go through all this and love and rage like,

00:17:35: I pay attention to the anger I noticed the anger and I say okay I piss I'm definitely pissed,

00:17:41: and this is also an experience I'm having an experience of being angry you know there was someone that I had to address who was the cause of attention,

00:17:53: and the situation and was my job to neutralize that situation so when it came time for me to actually address this person I actually had to.

00:18:06: Move into recognizing love that I just want people to be happy I want people to be free from suffering this is why I'm doing it I'm not doing this because I'm pissed off I'm doing this because I want people to be better.

00:18:19: You know to be more authentic to to suffer less but the anger was there and I was riding the game,

00:18:26: so the anger was reminding me okay this is what happened you know this is the situation this is what you're working with in as long as I kept an eye on the anger,

00:18:37: I could continue it was like riding away was like surfing I was surfing on the anger,

00:18:42: that was energy that was using to move me forward but the law of was the energy that was using to to really like.

00:18:52: Be skillful.

00:18:53: Be kind but be to be direct and truthful and you bring both of those practices together this is what I'm talking about you know the coming together a lot of rage.

00:19:05: Hmm so it's also.

00:19:09: It's on the one side it's a it's a working with these emotions it's familiarizing with them because I I imagine in order to ride a wave.

00:19:20: You have to familiarize yourself you know with the waters and with how they move and so on you know so I guess you have to go into the water first you know so so it's a process of familiarizing yourself with this with the anger with this rage or with whatever that,

00:19:34: the fuel is and at the same time it's also.

00:19:38: Would you say it's like a proactive cultivation of Love or of compassion as as a base.

00:19:46: Cesar yeah yeah absolutely you know it's it's the love and compassion that whole staying there.

00:19:56: You know so it holds my hurts.

00:19:59: You know that has to be cultivated for self as well so this is this is why this practice is so hard because it's I have to love myself enough to do this.

00:20:13: And that that self-love is I think one of the hardest things you will ever do.

00:20:20: And in our practice has been one of the hardest things for me to work with oh yeah no.

00:20:30: Yeah you know yeah you know it sounds just going to wholeheartedly agree yeah you know and it doesn't mean that we shouldn't try I think this should

00:20:40: this should be the root of our practice is self-love and from

00:20:44: the practice of self-love which is which is a process it's not it's not like we just land somewhere.

00:20:50: And say okay this is I love myself I think so far was just a process we have to we have to commit ourselves to process each day.

00:20:58: You know as much as possible each moment I'm committing myself to self-love right you know and that love actually gives me permission.

00:21:08: To actually take care of the anger to tend to my anger.

00:21:12: You know I see it as valuable if I what I love myself I see my whole experience.

00:21:20: My body and my mind as valuable as importance.

00:21:25: There's nothing that I'm pushing to the margins and believing that it's not valuable that I shouldn't work with it everything is workable within a space of self-love.

00:21:39: If that sounds true and it sounds wonderful though.

00:21:46: In my experience there are a lot of obstacles

00:21:51: on the way to to self-love right there is guilt shame its range is all these things so are we are we again sort of talking about,

00:22:02: the same approach of sort of sitting with the guilt and the shame sitting with the obstacles that are in the way of self love in order to,

00:22:11: use those as a gate.

00:22:14: Yes you know what I have this I have this teaching which is,

00:22:21: we have to love even what is unlovable and so what I mean by love is this non-judgmental acceptance of what is.

00:22:34: Okay so when I say acceptance I don't mean condoning I don't mean celebrating I mean just recognizing something for what it is B it shame guilt,

00:22:45: self-hate whatever it maybe I can recognize it and say there you are.

00:22:50: And it's not a judgment it's just a statement of reality this is my experience that I'm having,

00:22:57: you know and once I recognized the experience once I accept the experience and I can actually begin to do the work.

00:23:05: Of moving through it you know of holding space for it really.

00:23:11: Because those exceptions is really about holding space you know it's about allowing something to be there that's really soft love that's really an in that she'll,

00:23:20: right you know and it's not it's not about being comfortable or feeling good yeah you know,

00:23:29: the practice of a love and acceptance will open the door into experience.

00:23:37: I began to experience the material and my mind and my body.

00:23:42: And when I experience something then it begins to transform naturally automatically.

00:23:51: Because the situation that we're working with now is that like many of us are.

00:23:58: We stand at a distance away from our experience like we're not experiencing we're just standing over in the corner looking at the experience making assumptions.

00:24:07: You know is it uses anger for example like I many people to actually don't understand what anger is because they've never experienced things they've only reactive.

00:24:16: Mmm-hmm so once we actually start

00:24:19: moving closer to the anger holding space for an accepting it then you start actually experiencing it you begin to experience it as a physical reality you begin to experience as a mental reality and then it will naturally transformed

00:24:32: you know I say that in my in my work I say that you will gain agency.

00:24:38: Over the Expedia over the experience instead of the experience having agency over you because when I'm standing in the corner looking at my anger making assumptions I anger has agency over me

00:24:49: you know but when I come closer look into it begin to experience actually begin to express agency over the anchor.

00:24:57: Came and that's that's the path of liberation.

00:25:05: That's the path of Liberation is the experience experiencing it letting it go and I have a whole series of practices and love and rage that helps us to do that

00:25:14: you know let's move closer let's experiment let's let's let's let's investigate right let's experience let's Let It Go Let It Go what does that mean to let anger go

00:25:25: you know I have this process called snowle you know and it's like a meditation practice and

00:25:34: the last parts of that practice is letting it go and letting it floats you know so not only do I let the anger,

00:25:44: whatever it is I'm experiencing not know weed I just kind of let it go and let it just float in my experience.

00:25:52: You know and that's important and just look at them like oh look there's anger there's my hurt

00:25:59: there is there is my joy to because this also works with joy yeah Pleasant experiences you know anger isn't.

00:26:08: So special it's just it's like any other emotion that we experience you know but somehow we've labeled it less.

00:26:18: Demi experience when jewelry are less desirable,

00:26:21: they Joy or happiness you know and so forth but part of the tradition of meditation you know a mini traditions of meditation is really asking us to say you know what how can we begin to see all the material,

00:26:35: in our minds as equal.

00:26:38: How do we begin to do that so this is also,

00:26:46: it seems also to relate a little bit to this idea of spiritual bypassing you know where or as an opposition to it whereas I experienced I also have to include myself at some point,

00:27:00: into this we're experienced people entering a spiritual path or a meditation practice firstly with the with the with the desire with the wish to.

00:27:10: Be happy.

00:27:11: Yeah to to get better you know to to overcome get rid of whatever it is so in this this idea of like.

00:27:21: Leaning into the emotions and thought about so bringing happiness giving it the same.

00:27:27: Joy right giving it the same importance of the same kind of holding it in the same way as you hold anger it seems counterintuitive at first,

00:27:36: it seems like oh why am I know I am a barking on the spiritual journey I don't want to feel worse yeah yeah you know yeah yeah.

00:27:44: And that's a basic misunderstanding of spirituality I've had enough because.

00:27:53: I think when spirituality meets the marketplace its spirituality is rebranded as something as a feel-good.

00:28:04: Kind of this film.

00:28:12: Saying as a product is it's like I can just like taking a pill I'm going to take this pill I'm going to take whatever it is I'm going to feel good 30 minutes and that's how,

00:28:23: spirituality tickly mindfulness meditation is branded,

00:28:27: you know but actually the heart of the spiritual path is about transformation inner and outer transformation transformation is really difficult.

00:28:38: You know and I know many people come to the practices.

00:28:43: Wanting to feel happy wanting to be more comfortable and I,

00:28:50: and it's not that I have a problem with that necessarily like I think that it's okay for us to be clear about what we want

00:28:59: but I also say that my motivation in spirituality is to get free.

00:29:09: You know to experience both social and ultimate liberation of course also deliberations probably going to happen quicker the social liberation

00:29:22: so my some my goal is to get free I teach practices for people to get free,

00:29:27: that means we have to go into the shift that scares us that means that we may start a practice which is probably not going to feel so good

00:29:39: there are many stories when I first started practicing I was really fortunate because I just I had.

00:29:49: Examples around me of people who were very clear about what practice was they were very clear that no like you you'll start this and it may not feel good for a while.

00:30:04: You know it doesn't feel good for a while because you're doing something you never done before which is actually moving into the things that are really uncomfortable.

00:30:14: And I had to trust that I had to trust that.

00:30:20: Me feeling worse was actually going to end up with me feeling Freer.

00:30:26: You know and when I say free or also mean to to say spacious.

00:30:35: Because my freedom arrives at a spaciousness I just want their space that's really not just like I say my the goal I practice and teaching is to get free,

00:30:46: but I'm also saying that like the goal of my practice and teaching is to remember the spaciousness.

00:30:52: And my mind when I have spaced and I have options you know I'm not bound by,

00:31:01: the material in my mind I'm not bound by my anger I'm not even I'm not not even Bound by the happiness and enjoy like there's a mix everything's there I don't feel restricted I feel as if I can move I have Mobility,

00:31:15: So when you say space just to just to just to you know explore into that.

00:31:22: Would you say you are talking about a.

00:31:26: A broadened sense of experiencing which sort of encompasses and holds.

00:31:36: Your emotion or your reactivity or whatever it is happening within this broader context of you,

00:31:45: space yes yes absolutely and nor does it mean that I space out she's like I think it's a big difference I think that's what many people,

00:31:57: here when they hear me say that it's like oh.

00:32:01: The potential is that I'll just spaced out and get Nam are distracted as really not the case you awareness defense,

00:32:09: right you know their awareness deepens and so when the awareness deepens in a space c pins your objectivity,

00:32:16: like it's it's minimize you know so again like when we have spaciousness I don't find that like I'm habitually reacting to everything.

00:32:30: But what I began to discover is that I can actually make a choice as to how I'm responding to something,

00:32:39: and in my practice now you're I can fill in the past couple months of felt really heavy and tough for just not just for myself but billions of people and.

00:32:52: And if I didn't have a meditation practice then I would be responding reacting so they having his ways that you know may not have been healthy you know but I can I can in a moment I can say like I'm feeling really,

00:33:06: sad and feeling really hopeless like it's just seems the world just seems hopeless and

00:33:13: politics and the environment and you know racial Justice all the seems really overwhelming and helpless I can notice it

00:33:20: you know that to say okay I just want this to be in my experience I just want to hold you know and again going back is like as I hold it I began to experience it.

00:33:32: You know and the more you learn to experience the less afraid you become of the material in your mind.

00:33:41: I say oh there's their sadness again right there's despair again there's also happiness looking at this happiness is gratitude as well you know because the space helps us to see everything.

00:33:56: Both the joy in the summer you know.

00:34:03: But I think that you have to be willing to do the work.

00:34:08: Of experiencing really uncomfortable things and learning how to sit through that and I just have a natural I really do have a natural kind of.

00:34:18: I didn't know tendency to do that you know I just come from you know I just come from an upbringing where.

00:34:27: I just had to work it was just work you know something used to working you know and so I think when I came into meditation.

00:34:38: You know even though it was a lot of work right it was like it was a it was a lot of work it was a different kind of work I've never done the work,

00:34:46: of really mental health and the way that I was doing my story yesterday.

00:34:52: And that was a different kind of work and I had to learn how to do that kind of work that really hard work but I did learn how to do.

00:34:59: I think I do said first you you actually hated it you didn't like meditation at all yeah it was horrible like it was so horrible I just I hate I couldn't understand how anyone.

00:35:12: Could possibly do this again I would sit down and all the suffering.

00:35:17: Yeah I'm like as soon as I turn my attention to it it was just unbearable and I was just I mean I just like I couldn't deal with it but it.

00:35:28: I saw I quit and I came back to it because I realized finally like oh this is supposed to happen.

00:35:36: You know and when I came back to meditation practice early my practice I realized that you know before when I first started meditating I was just doing it because everyone else.

00:35:48: You know but when I came back to practice for the second time I was doing it because I want to be well I knew that I had to do this for myself and that motivation completely changed you know.

00:36:02: I'm going to work through everything that came up for me in the practice and that was also the the realization that.

00:36:12: Get a realization quite early to say okay this is not about happiness after sitting for 20 minutes this is about Freedom after after.

00:36:24: Going through.

00:36:26: The hurt the pain that the woundedness and I and this guy even about peace and the way that we think about peace you know I wasn't thinking about case I wasn't thinking about happiness and just I was just thinking about.

00:36:41: Oh I have to I have to explore this part of my desk.

00:36:46: You know there's something here that have to get to I didn't know what it was you know of course I would

00:36:52: get the tea Chang's and I would study space beside a spaciousness and everything I just felt like they were so far away from me but in the moment,

00:37:02: I was dealing with these really basic things with the basic suffering that was experiencing an overtime you know,

00:37:10: well I can definitely say is that the space begins to open up when we commit ourselves you know and I really committed

00:37:18: so the prices I committed to a daily meditation practice I committed eventually to going to Retreats as setting with teachers of course I've always been reading

00:37:29: So reading the books and you have to get to consume,

00:37:36: the teachings you have to consume whatever you can get your hands on because that's all going to be a foundation for their practice.

00:37:45: You know you just do it you keep you keep coming back as I said we use this expression coming back to the.

00:37:51: But you know that's just the way for us to say we just keep coming back to the practice over and over again in the practice again it's basically just.

00:37:59: Looking noticing becoming aware of.

00:38:03: You know accepting holding space for that saw like that's the only thing I do that's literally the only thing that I do

00:38:11: my practice Yeah I may have like and I do all kinds of practices and Yama Tantra practitioner so I do all kinds of rituals and deity practice and changing but really at the end of the day this is all I'm doing.

00:38:25: You know these practices support the work of holding everything in my experience and that makes me more human.

00:38:32: And you know I feel much more human now,

00:38:35: I have ever felt you know because I can feel I can feel the joy and the sorrow.

00:38:43: I'm not running away from either of course you know I don't you know many of us don't run away from Joy you know but we definitely right away from this all of that there are some that went away from July yeah what also happens yeah.

00:38:56: Yeah you know you're you just mentioned you a tantric practitioner this one just just a short side detour.

00:39:06: You're you do have a very let's call it traditional training you know you are you went through the three-year Retreat and.

00:39:17: And please correct me if I'm wrong but you sort of did that very quickly right I mean you did that you did in a 3 years and 3 months or whatever but you sort of

00:39:27: from beginning to practice meditation to have going into rigorous retreated how quickly did it go it was very quick it was so quick that it startled everyone yeah.

00:39:40: Not just my friends you know and family who was just startled by the fact that was going into a retreat which seems felt like a cult did you do it in one sitting

00:39:50: yes yeah okay literally yeah okay the ones that yeah and but you know I was around about long-term practitioners people have been practicing with for decades,

00:40:01: for longer I might have been practicing and then as soon as I really got serious about practice.

00:40:08: I made a commitment to do this yeah and then my practitioner friends were like how.

00:40:15: Yeah you know you're just like like the analogy is I was just learning how to drive and I like I just like literally I just got in my driver's license and I made the Declaration to become a Race Car Driver.

00:40:29: You know and I did you know I knew exactly what I needed to do that was very clear

00:40:40: I think we do like we many people have had these experiences in their lives where they absolutely know what needs to be done.

00:40:49: You know and that opened up for me really clearly and I had to it was a lot of resistance around me.

00:40:58: You know but when people realize I was really serious that I was actually going to do it then people really started getting behind me and supporting me.

00:41:06: So I you know so the timeline really I'd only been practicing Maybe.

00:41:14: Two years now maybe before I moved to the monastery but that's quick though that's still super quick show you know particularly the three-year Retreat is like the dream.

00:41:28: For so many people it's you know it's such a.

00:41:36: It is such a privilege to get to do that you know to be able to leave your life for three years.

00:41:44: You know and have everything taken care of,

00:41:48: in your life and to step into this situation and it takes a lot of work but I was also really lucky because I was in my 20s I didn't have anything like I didn't own a house I wasn't in a relationship

00:42:02: I wasn't tied to the world yeah you know so I do have colleagues friends who were.

00:42:09: Deeply tied to the world they had kids and families and partners and houses and that's you know that took a significant amount of effort for them.

00:42:19: You know Sue to leave that life in the come into it so but you do what you have to do if this is something you're called to do and this is the part about the spiritual path that bike out always want to communicate to folks

00:42:33: is that if you really want to get free if you really make an authentic aspiration to get free you have to be willing.

00:42:40: To really meet what arises we have to meet the infant the invitations that you receive.

00:42:48: Yeah so further that freedom were and it means it's different for everyone for me it meant three years of retreat.

00:42:55: Mom for others it means that like you change your career are you.

00:43:01: You know the relationship are whatever it may be you become a monastic among Karan on assault.

00:43:10: You know it's different for everyone you know but.

00:43:14: There was a level of Courage that we have to embody to do things that can get us free because at the end of the day I tell people it's like I have to do these things for myself even though.

00:43:26: It's really hard like it was really hard for people,

00:43:30: for me to leave for years to leave people's lives you know sure that was tough right you know but I had to put myself first because I knew that I wouldn't be able.

00:43:44: Like let's just say let's just say I wouldn't be having this conversation with you right now if I hadn't done that yes like I wouldn't be here.

00:43:53: You know I think it's I think it's an interesting perspective to to look at because especially,

00:44:01: where you in your in your teachings and your practice is you emphasized I think it's also one of the five you know basic principles that you that you employ in teaching you know.

00:44:15: Is that there is always the awareness of,

00:44:20: connectedness to the community or connectedness to the collective you know like how you practice and what you do and how you are as being we has an impact on your surrounding capsule so-so.

00:44:35: There is a conception sometimes you know especially if you are in very activist circles and so on you know there's a conception that if you if you do a three-year retreat in which is

00:44:45: call it an extreme right but if you go on short of it treats if you take time for your practice and so on is a suspicion that that might be a selfish thing to do it's like all

00:44:58: this is a selfish act this is time away from you know

00:45:03: being there for the collective and the same time there is this there is at the same time.

00:45:10: If you just exert yourself in a certain way without replenishing without looking at yourself.

00:45:16: You might go into burnout you might go into a trap of sort of being reactionary with your emotions and so on and and so how would you.

00:45:27: How would you describe this sort of this balance of your spiritual practice then going back into the collective and vice versa,

00:45:35: yeah yeah well you know those were the conversations that people were having with me when I decided to do this those are the exact conversations that people were suspicious that I was being criticized for giving up,

00:45:49: been doing something really selfish and I learned a lot from that experience I just learned that like we don't value self care and self-preservation,

00:45:58: some movement works you know like we don't like we.

00:46:03: Like it's almost as if well back then you know back when I was on the streets you know doing work really actively the thing was that.

00:46:15: I just felt like the more bird out you were the anger you were that was that was celebrated.

00:46:24: You know when you're retired and overwhelmed and people would look at you and say oh like there.

00:46:30: I can't really commit the people were inside it's quite a capitalist kind of approach right it's all the work it's like the managers or whoever the workers that I really overworked that's like yeah they're going for,

00:46:42: yeah you're overwhelmed overworked tired fatigued

00:46:45: you know people would have breakdowns right yeah you know and it was like yeah that was really bad like someone had a breakdown but when people are really tired it was like oh yeah they're really doing the work

00:46:56: and I just you know when I decided to go away I said you know I can only I'm going to come back.

00:47:04: You know I'm going to come back but I won't survive.

00:47:09: The world if I don't do this work for myself now nor will I have anything really valuable to contribute to the movement.

00:47:18: You know I don't do this in her work someone has to do the inner work you know the,

00:47:23: we have to another thing that take really seriously is eldership like I want to become an elder,

00:47:30: but you have to do the work to enter into eldership you know and I know that we're missing it's not that we're missing Elders the elders are around you know but I want to do my work so I can claim my place as a Milder.

00:47:45: You know so people can look at me and say oh you have something interesting and valuable to offer you know to the younger Generations but.

00:47:54: You know I you know,

00:47:57: I had to push against a lot of folks going in to retrieve you know and and it's only again it's only because of that word

00:48:07: which has led me to do two books that are for activists you know that speak directly to activist you know I couldn't have done that I couldn't have written

00:48:20: these books without that experience you know because I want us to be sustainable.

00:48:26: You know and I want us to I think our activism has to transform you know and I think there has to be a level of care and Collective care and individual care.

00:48:40: You know with and Collective movements you know there has to be healing.

00:48:46: Like yeah we have have to disrupt systems of ours but we also have to heal at the same time and we can do both at the same time but it takes an expertise and it takes those of us coming back into the community to show folks how to do that

00:49:01: you know so yeah I just you know I think that.

00:49:11: The collective is really important for me I do everything for the collective.

00:49:17: You know everything is about trying to help people feel Freer feel less just experienced less suffering to be more connected to have more happiness whatever it may be you know it's not just for me.

00:49:31: You know which is

00:49:34: I know this is the philosophy of what we call the bodhisattva

00:49:42: you know in Buddhism which is like the same this is this we call it spiritual Warrior but it's like really about being seen

00:49:49: you know this is a spiritual same and the Heart of the voice sought for commitment is that we just we keep coming back

00:49:57: to help people that this isn't about ourselves that we take care of ourselves we do work for ourselves but that work is only being done so we can offer back.

00:50:07: So the folks around us.

00:50:10: To our communities to our collectives to our Affinity groups or whomever it may be you know it's not self-indulgent.

00:50:19: Yeah I think I think they're the my retreat seen self-indulgence so folks and I get it like it didn't seem self-indulgent it seemed like Buddha summer camp to folks it seemed like all you're going to take a three your vacation.

00:50:34: Right because everything is taken care of right like you have people cooking for you and doing all the stuff for you so you can just practice.

00:50:43: Another working for years practicing.

00:50:46: You're working for that that's that's the piece that people don't connect to write like you're like like my eye you know your ass is getting kicked.

00:50:56: Perpetually because there are there are these conditions that have been created where you can't actually avoid it anymore you can't bypass it and that's

00:51:06: this is why through Retreat is such an intense experience because you know you like you don't you're not bypassing anymore.

00:51:16: You know so the shed that scares the shit out of you like you're going to have to deal with

00:51:22: you know whatever you've considered a nightmare are you going to actually have to live through over and over and over again until you learn how to be liberated.

00:51:33: You know this is why that this experience isn't for everyone.

00:51:40: Like this three or three is not something I prescribed anyone I've never told anyone that they should do that I knew I needed to do that,

00:51:49: you know a lot of people come to me who want to do it actually don't want to do it for the right reasons yeah like you have to you literally have to be called to do this like I didn't consult anyone.

00:52:03: Like I knew like I absolutely knew that this was exactly what I was going to do so I didn't ask anyone's permission of course I asked my teachers permission my story and to go through the application process application solutely but I didn't have to like ask anyone,

00:52:17: permission.

00:52:19: To ask to go into Retreat you know like I knew that this is exactly what I wanted to do and you have to have that confidence you need that confidence to make it through,

00:52:29: what can be the hardest experiences of your life it was the hardest experience however have,

00:52:35: you know I don't even think death is going to be that hard apparently you know to what I went through.

00:52:42: But that experience for pressure already little little prepared you did that kaju Retreat right six yoga's and,

00:52:50: six yoga's you know prepared for death are yeah yeah you know it takes the fear away from Death because it you know you have to learn how to live your life.

00:53:00: That's the thing that's what prepares us for death we live our lives we don't wait till tomorrow.

00:53:06: That's for the next day or next week's a beautiful sentence yeah but you can't live your life if you're afraid of the material,

00:53:13: in your experience you know as you know we have running away from everything yeah that's big because it's like a it's a circle we go back to the beginning if you can't be with your anger that you're not living your life.

00:53:26: You know living your life means that like you're experiencing everything you're holding space for everything that's going to.

00:53:35: Facilitated very different life like Thanksgiving sides and about you and,

00:53:44: there is something that you know if this is something that you know.

00:53:49: We don't want to talk about you can just say it and we'll cut it out later or something but as you say experiencing.

00:54:00: Everything and living your life fully it sometimes in my experience it can it can mean.

00:54:07: Wrestling with are holding seeming opposing opposites and and that's.

00:54:15: That's a very interesting experience so I would like to ask you about something I heard an interview that you did with ether Nick turn and you were speaking about.

00:54:29: How there was instances of abuse happening in your Sangha also connected to your teacher and that there was that for you it was a.

00:54:44: I don't want to put these words in your mouth but I'm wondering and I think this is something that.

00:54:51: In other ways a lot of us experience you have this this may be intense love for a personal this connection and you have this this this gratitude you have this one feeling and then at the other side there is a,

00:55:05: there is another thing that comes in there's a heart there's a disappointment there is something that goes against one's convictions of values usually we are we are pressured to choose,

00:55:18: it's like what side do you want right like how are you going to react to this how are you going to clear cut and so on and so on but it seems like.

00:55:28: Wut again let me not put these words in your mouth but there is a but there might also be another proposition there might be a proposition of.

00:55:38: Can you be with all of it.

00:55:44: So could you say something about that could you maybe even would you be willing to share your experience of that.

00:55:54: Of holding those those those things together if it was like that at all,

00:55:59: yeah well he absolutely you know and it's you know it's

00:56:04: it actually goes to the title of the book love and rage you know because everyone asks what are these completely opposite no things and I say no actually like they're complimentary you know and so.

00:56:18: And that kind of love and rage off also came out of my experience with my teachers and my teacher.

00:56:24: Three years had been engaged you know unethical sexual relationships you know with.

00:56:31: I'm with female students you know and one of them being a really good friend of mine,

00:56:36: and and so when when I found out about it I was just really I was completely disappointed because you know,

00:56:46: you know it hurts

00:56:49: you know and I was with those experiences her disappointment you know and I had to spend a little bit of time working through it you know and of course after about a year or two me working with it all this became popular.

00:57:03: And so they became this really public thing and I've got really involved with so much of the public

00:57:09: rhetoric around it and public that you know stuff and that really began the rage hard for me that really began you know I was I was just really pissed off at him I was pissed off at my teacher I was pissed off at my community I was pissed off at the people who,

00:57:27: were trying to excuse the behavior.

00:57:31: You know and I was experiencing all this anger but at the same time I still love my teacher.

00:57:38: Kol and it took me,

00:57:44: I'm even longer period to really hold the space for all of that and really what it meant the like I had to rest with them love and I had to just continually over and over and over again experience the anger the rage that kept coming up.

00:57:58: You know which was also the heart rate the cleat other disappointed fans and the shame and the guilt everything that comes from that so all of that was happening at the same time.

00:58:10: You know and you just again it's the space everything was just happening within the space I learned it.

00:58:17: You know this has been just over the past three years or so three or four years so this really came out like it just it was learning how

00:58:24: just a certain experience all this really intense energy you know.

00:58:32: How how how do we enable you just said it's a couple of years yeah mmm.

00:58:41: We live in a time in which we are asked to.

00:58:45: React and have a position instantly yeah and I had a position to position in a way,

00:58:58: it wasn't my position was it wasn't that I hated my teacher.

00:59:07: You know and well let me just reframe that you know my position was coming into the middle you know so I couldn't completely right off my teacher because there were people who were,

00:59:20: people will like let's just forget it this is all really messed up you know he's not.

00:59:27: Authentic let's forget let's walk away that was one extreme to The Other Extreme was like you can't possible Lee give up on your teacher like whatever he did it was just a misunderstanding,

00:59:39: yeah that was another extreme and none of those extremes felt authentic for me so my position was the complexity of being in the middle,

00:59:49: it looks like I love my teacher I recognize that I probably wouldn't have the life that I have without him being in my life but he also did something that was really messed up in wrong and hurtful in violence.

01:00:03: You know and both of those were my position and that releases people that piss people off.

01:00:12: Yeah I've been a bad bad really and that made me an outsider for for a while.

01:00:19: You know it was just it was it's a hard place to be because.

01:00:26: For me it is an expression of maturity when I can see all of this and hold all these complex positions and for me that is the point one of the points in my practice to is like I want to hold complexity.

01:00:39: Like I want to hold nuanced I want to hold subtly and I felt like everyone.

01:00:46: Was bypassing the complexity because it hurt too much it was too much work it's so easy that the extremists.

01:00:56: You know it's you know it's so easy to be super radical or so easy to be super conservative might you know I'm going to hit these extremes but to come into the middle one to say you know what I see I see a lot of Truth around me.

01:01:12: You know and this is where I am choosing to be right now you know because that is what's going to heal me.

01:01:19: That's what's going to keep my heart open that's that's the point of this I need to keep my heart open yes.

01:01:27: And I hit an extreme my heart shuts down to another position yeah,

01:01:33: you know the metal is the hardest place for us to be because we have to we're forced were when we come into the middle perforce the state of relationship to all the things are really uncomfortable,

01:01:46: you know and the things that feel really good aren't distracting any longer,

01:01:51: you know because we get into these things that feel good and that it takes us out of the sufferings as you know I just want to feel good like I just wanted to get into this view this philosophy this movie

01:02:02: but when you're in the middle like it doesn't take you it just keeps you within this mix,

01:02:09: hello all these complexities you know and you and this there's not a timeline here I guess this isn't the middle isn't an instant iteration it is.

01:02:21: Liberation over a period of time.

01:02:25: That can sometimes feel excruciating you know particularly when you're surrounded by people who are forcing you.

01:02:35: Yeah so to have it inserted to Hidden extreme.

01:02:38: But the middle doesn't doesn't have to mean that it does it doesn't have to mean passivity exactly I think the middle is extremely active like I think you have you have to work the business model.

01:02:52: I think the middle is the most active place for that we can be within a position.

01:02:58: You know like another like another example right now for me being in America is you know I look at you know we have this make America great again crowd,

01:03:10: you know

01:03:11: which on one hand if I were you know hitting an extreme I would say Well they're fucking pain in the ass is what they are the races you know they're all these things right that's one extreme you know and that's you know yeah that feels natural I want to be on that extreme you know

01:03:27: but what's lost is my capacity to empathize.

01:03:33: With this other group you know with the make America great you know there's.

01:03:40: There is there's woundedness in hurt there that I want to do a little bit of work of connecting to,

01:03:47: because I don't want them even using them can be objectified but like I don't want people to be a checked objectified.

01:03:56: My experience in the same way that I've often filled objectify like I don't want to I don't want to put that out in the world like I have a disruptive that,

01:04:06: same hurt side yeah same hurt yeah I want to see people's people I want to see people as humans who are trying to make the best decisions.

01:04:16: You know given their condition and given how they were born or given you know the limited information that they have in the world.

01:04:25: You know yes and that's the middle it's like I don't agree with you sometimes I can't stand you but I need to,

01:04:35: to continue to relate to you as human as someone who exactly like me.

01:04:41: You know who experience the suffering but also wants to be happy I want to be free you know and then we have certain conditioning certain identity locations you know that inform how we choose to get free.

01:04:57: You know and you know one thing that I you know say all the time is that like I just don't know how people,

01:05:03: were born I honestly don't I don't just look at people and say and no oh like you were born into a really shitty situation and you actually didn't have a lot of support for her and you didn't get a lot of love,

01:05:17: Ryan you know and you actually don't understand love you don't know how to receive love you don't know how to express love and maybe you're being a complete jerk to me in this moment

01:05:28: and maybe you're only doing this because that's the best way you know how to show up because you hurt so much.

01:05:36: You know it's on one hand we can say that's giving people the benefit of the doubt but I would I would

01:05:44: challenge that little bit and say I just think there's a lot of Truth in it period just think that like we're just we're just being weird formed by these things in our lives and

01:05:54: each moment that we show up it's just an expression of what we've survived.

01:05:59: Yeah see get to that you know and like it's not always about me well it's I would say often it's about our wounded it's our hurts you know and we're going to blame someone

01:06:13: that's an interesting thing though because the more you you you get in touch with.

01:06:20: You own woundedness which is you know again Behind The Rage or behind the disappointment of behind all that stuff right.

01:06:30: I have a feeling that there is a there is a strong sense of connection to other people because we are all very much the same in in the way we are our personality is made.

01:06:43: You know from our experiences and so on and I'll also our

01:06:46: reactions our emotional constructions how they function is a lot of it is protection from feeling the world so if we can connect on that that deep level of where all of us have that shared.

01:07:00: Humanity of woundedness of experience of paint or you know that's I think that's incredibly beautiful and valuable.

01:07:12: And there's there's something I would like to ask you about which which is also I think which is die.

01:07:18: Related but very difficult to to connect with and and.

01:07:25: I'd like I'm reading this about so I'm paraphrasing.

01:07:29: We Believe healing is reserved for the oppressed and we are upset to believe that the oppressor,

01:07:37: isn't just as much need of healing and if the oppressor is healed he or she might not produce so much violence mmm,

01:07:46: this is very controversial statement yeah yes but I would I would go on a limb and say.

01:07:54: I wholeheartedly agree yeah you know but if my opinion matters for anything but I wholeheartedly agree.

01:08:01: With that yet I think that is a very difficult.

01:08:09: Way too that is a very difficult thing to relate with yes yeah yeah absolutely you know and that's that's all that was that's a really hard thing.

01:08:19: For us to be with because I think a legitimate criticism of that statement is that well if you say that then you're taking.

01:08:31: Attention away from oppressed people.

01:08:35: You know and censoring the pain of the the oppressor I think that's legitimate in a way you know but when I

01:08:44: Now is really coming into that teaching in that's you know and writing that I was just realizing we're all hurting.

01:08:52: You know and I.

01:08:55: You think and I would think about the ways in which I had been hurt by other people and I would say God I wonder I wonder.

01:09:03: If that person were actually happy.

01:09:07: What I have been hurt and the way that was hurt you know our to make it even more personal right like in situations where I have been the aggressor like if I were actually really happy.

01:09:19: But I have committed the violence that I committed.

01:09:22: You know whatever that violence was yeah and so I really like that led me to two really just having two.

01:09:30: To open to this reality that yeah like we all actually need to be healed you know like why people have to be killed from white supremacy,

01:09:43: you know men cisgender men have to be healed from patriarchy

01:09:53: as well as those who are victims of patriarchy like the you know the you know you know when your women and then gender non-conforming folks and trans folks like it's again it's not just their precious the oppressed like if.

01:10:08: And again I just bring it back to patriarchal for me it's like.

01:10:12: I have had to do this work and I continue to do this work to understand how patriarchy has taken away.

01:10:21: My capacity to do emotional labor for myself you know and I've had to restore.

01:10:28: That capacity through practice.

01:10:31: You know of course I'm that was the main criticism people were coming to me earlier about practice around there like you just you seem detached you seem a pathetic.

01:10:40: And I had to use my medical practice meditation practice do everything that we've been talking about how to actually move closer into all these emotions.

01:10:49: Including anger that was always running away from.

01:10:52: You know and that began the work of understanding what emotional labor was for myself and that emotional labor actually begin to disrupt.

01:11:00: These messages this conditioning and patriarchy you know the says that I have to be distant from my emotions yeah you know and,

01:11:09: doing emotional labor from that self-touching into the my emotional reality has limited greatly the kinds of violence that I can miss.

01:11:21: I mean get a job I can listen more I could feel the more you know I'm more sensitive

01:11:30: like I cry like crying as a practice yeah no like filling the Heartbreak that the spare and like sitting with the shame and the gills.

01:11:43: I think a lot of patriarchal at house take that bag I think all of violence are patriarchy is around our inability to be with shame.

01:11:56: Gilts you know and how we.

01:12:02: We are to the shame and guilt and anger around that shame and guilt and we harm other people including ourselves but mostly other people.

01:12:11: Particularly other people and groups who remind us that there's a different way to be in the world.

01:12:21: Then just shut down and isolated a noun.

01:12:29: Scary I think that's scary you know I think you get to our age and.

01:12:39: And you begin to look at people in our age group and you see people who have never actually figured out who and what they are.

01:12:50: We've never asked these questions they never had these conversations before and then they start thinking about it and I think on one hand that's amazing - incredible.

01:12:59: But on the other hand is like oh my God you just doing this now.

01:13:04: No it's never too late I feel like there's it's never too late but I'm just so grateful that I've been able to do this work for almost 20 years of my life it was almost half my life now.

01:13:24: Yeah so that's again that's the healing yeah you know that's the human being agent in there are these people around us.

01:13:34: The freeze people one is a sort of,

01:13:37: would you say that by going through this is yourself you're also giving the permission to other people are empowering other people around you

01:13:45: absolutely when people if people know and trust us and they see us doing certain things then they

01:13:54: will,

01:13:55: trust the process more you know like what I will you know when I see people doing things that's how I get really involved in things they say oh that person is doing this game,

01:14:05: this person I really admire and respect an overly well if they're doing it you know it must be like really interesting and good

01:14:13: you know but another part of that even if people don't know you they will begin to sense the ways in which you.

01:14:24: Like there is a way in which we put up an armored a barrier you know and I think that when we do this work that barrier that armor.

01:14:33: Is taken down I think people will feel that and when they feel that they will.

01:14:40: So safe around you because you're not armed up ready to attack anyone.

01:14:46: You know and so I can walk through the world I can I can still have boundaries this is it like boundaries.

01:14:54: Are necessary and important you know but I have learned that like there are certain boundaries that are really necessary but they don't have to be boundaries that block the whole world.

01:15:06: Seeing me.

01:15:07: You know this of course like there are different people who have different access to me you know but for the most part publicly,

01:15:17: yeah I kind of moved the world with a lot of vulnerability a lot of openness and that's I've learned how to be safe.

01:15:27: Doing that rather well save maybe it's not the word I would say I've learned how to take care of myself being that vulnerable.

01:15:38: You know I'm in the world and I know that this level of vulnerability helps other people to be free.

01:15:46: It gives permission as your say gives permission for other people to do the work if they see me doing it they're like okay here's an example someone who's actually making this work.

01:15:56: In the world but again it's a whole circle of Commons back to how willing I am to be with the discomfort.

01:16:08: You know how am I taking care of the discomfort and so forth like that's the issue that's the point if I'm not taking care of the discomfort I won't be able.

01:16:18: And the world.

01:16:20: You know I don't want to be able to do this and I you know and I write in a way that's really vulnerable and really open and and you know people read my work and they think they know me.

01:16:33: In a way they do you know as you know I'm in this position where so many people know much more about me.

01:16:42: That I know about them so that creates a kind of familiarity yeah me people like they know the stuff about me

01:16:50: and I'm okay I did that on purpose that wasn't an accident sure you know but like there are still things that are still reserved.

01:17:00: Of course for people who are closest to me you know even though I have a deep capacity to share a lot of things I can only share it because I have a practice to hold.

01:17:10: That Sherry like I don't hurt myself to share I think people.

01:17:16: I think there are people public people who continually hurt themselves harm themselves by continually oversharing.

01:17:25: You know I you know and that's that's one thing about social media is like this is place for people you know to get,

01:17:34: needs Madam when the needs is to be seen and you get seen by being vulnerable but I don't think it's healthy for I would say a lot of people.

01:17:43: Especially if they don't have a practice to hold that that sharing which again comes back to taking care of yourself and looking at.

01:17:53: Why are you doing this and yeah you know what is the unmet need made of you know exactly exactly he also found emotional labor to it's like when I share

01:18:04: like I am I've already done the labor for myself,

01:18:08: so when I share something it it's like I'm sharing something in a container you know.

01:18:19: And that's important for me that's always important for me to do is like if I don't have a container for the vulnerability that I'm actually forcing you to do emotional labor for me.

01:18:29: You know

01:18:32: particularly you know that's that can be difficult particularly if you haven't consensus to that like if I haven't asked you to do that that was kind of like you know just dropping this labor on you you know I think that's

01:18:47: part of how patriarchy perpetuates itself is like men have forced a lot of other people do our animal show label for for us because we can't do it for ourselves we don't have the capacity to do it for ourselves.

01:19:08: So yeah so you know again at the end of the day my practice is only about holding space for everything you're just noticing to be nowhere.

01:19:19: Thank you very much as a very.

01:19:35: Music.